Below is the gist of several emails between myself and another gentleman. His original email at the top contains the basics of the question and then below it will be a combination of my responses to him. I have attempted to re-organize my responses so that they make sense without giving the full-length correspondences.
Greetings bro. Tom, first I’d like to thank you for your website which I visit from time to time. There is very much good material there and I find myself often blessed as I read it. I recently read Mr. Smoot’s account of the “Contest” which erupted over doctrinal departures. While I found myself fascinated by the account overall, I could not help but find myself extremely puzzled at the “doctrine” that Smoot felt was at the heart of the disagreement. Now either I misunderstand Mr. Smoot’s contentions about his views of “Eternal Unity” or I myself would have to express grave disagreement over what it appears to me that he is saying. Sadly he is not still alive so it is impossible to ask the questions than I would like to ask him. He speaks of this “unity” almost in the same language that those who hold the “two-seed” doctrine use. I don’t think he entertained this notion but I am baffled as I read his continual reference to “seed substance” and the fact that the elect (according to him) are as eternal as the SON of GOD. If I understand what he is saying or if he is meaning what it appears he is saying one would have to conclude that the elect were not created. He is the first person I have ever read who sets forth such an idea and perhaps I am just so ignorant that I cannot follow his line of reason. He raises some real issues with which I agree but either he or I have a blind spot on this matter.
REPLY: – Thank you for your comments. I do appreciate feedback and comments concerning the web-site. It has been a huge privilege to be enabled to put it together and I hope that it is a blessing to the Lord’s people. Please understand that I speak for no one else but myself in my attempt at an answer below.
From my understanding, you are correct in your assessment of what Elder Smoot was proclaiming. The truth of the “Eternal Vital Union” is a vital doctrine that the Baptists have held to throughout history (at least as far as I am aware). In fact, in a sense it is related to those big theological terms; “Supralapsarian vs. Infralapsarian”. This in essence is the difference between the elect being chosen in Christ and the elect being chosen in Adam.
Elder Smoot does deal with A “two-seed” doctrine. But saying that, it is not the same as what I have heard referred to as “Parker’s Two-seed system.” I personally have not read what Daniel Parker had to say on the subject, so I do not know what he said first hand. But, if what I have read from others about it, and if their assessment is correct, then there are definitely certain aspects that I disagree with.
Right from the beginning of Scriptures, we see reference to two separate seeds.
Genesis 3:14-15 - And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Here the Lord is speaking to the serpent or better known as Satan or the Devil. He makes it abundantly clear that the Devil has a seed (see John 8:44). With the mention of “her seed”, we all know that it is in reference to Christ. But the point is that there is reference to “two seeds” here.
When looking at the rest of scripture, one cannot escape the concept of different seeds.
Proverbs 11:21 Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Psalms 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Isaiah 57:4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. (This doesn’t say “seed" but if there is a father, there must be a seed.)
Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
In this verse we see the words “I have loved thee” which points us to the past as a completed action. Then we see though that this love which is complete is an “everlasting” love which has no beginning nor ending. Where was Jeremiah before He was born in this world? He had to have been somewhere if the Lord had loved Him with an everlasting love? To say that He loved someone with an everlasting love and yet there be no one there to love makes no sense whatsoever. If we look at Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Can we safely assume from this verse and because there is no other verse to draw from when the “drawing” occurred, that it occurred in his mother’s womb? So, looking at verse 3 of chapter 31, we see that the EVERLASTING love came before the drawing. From verse 5 of chapter 1 we see that the drawing came while he was yet in him mother’s womb. And we can’t let escape the very first word of verse 5 of chapter 1. The word “before”. Before what? The Lord tells Jeremiah that before he was formed in the belly of his mother, that He the Lord KNEW him. How can that be if he was not in existence? How can the Lord know someone before they are born or love someone with an everlasting love if they are not in existence? Now please don’t misunderstand me. I by no means mean to infer that this tent, flesh, body or whatever you want to call it was in existence before. But the elect were in existence in seed form IN Christ before they partook of the body that was prepared them (Hebrews 2:14).
In Matthew chapter 19 Jesus said; “Verily I say unto you that ye which have followed me in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory...” (vs. 28). And in Titus 3:4-7, “after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” The “regeneration” was a one-time event and will not take place again nor has taken place at any time since. How could any have followed Jesus in this event unless they were IN Him at the time that He was regenerated?
Colossians 2:13-15 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Scripture says that “at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.” (Deut. 19:15b) Here are two verses that very plainly proclaim that the elect were quickened “together” with Christ. When did this happen? Were the elect just a figment of imagination in the eye’s of God and He just knew that they would be there in time, so He made this proclamation? The elect were IN Christ at the time of His quickening, and therefore they were quickened “together” with Him! If I were to say that my wife and I were “together” at the store, wouldn’t it mean that we were there at the same time? If I were to say that my wife and I were “together” for the evening, wouldn’t it be clear that she was with me and I with her? So, as I look at these verses, to me it is clear that the elect were “with” or better “IN” Christ when He was quickened.
The question is asked: “When was the Lord quickened?” Along with this question, we need to ask ourselves a couple of other questions: “When was the Lord regenerated?” And “When was the Lord begotten?” (see below for verses) To me, it is very clear that all of these questions can be answered with one statement. And that being: After three days in the tomb when Christ was raised from the dead. How could the elect have been quickened together with Christ unless they were IN Him as seed?
Revelation 1:5 “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,”
Titus 3:4-7 “after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
In Peter’s first letter he says; “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23) What is this “incorruptible seed” if it is not that seed that is IN Christ?
In Hebrews chapter 2 it says; “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same.” (vs. 14). This is a very interesting verse, especially in light of the topic that we are contemplating. From this verse it seems very clear that the elect are simply partaking of this flesh that they live in. This flesh is simply a shell or tent as the apostle Paul puts it.
When we look at the events of the creation we see a perfect picture of what we are discussing.
Genesis 1:26-28 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
This was the sixth day of creation and notice that the Lord created man as male and female together in one body. It isn’t until after the Lord rested on the seventh day do we see Him separating the one into two. Christ is the second Adam. Now we see that the first Adam had his bride within him, just like the second Adam has his bride within Him.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
When we think of eternal, we think of no beginning nor ending. It is almost impossible for our finite minds to comprehend. Notice in these scriptures above, those that do these things have already eternal life. If something in them (seed of Christ) was not from eternity, then please explain that a person in time can all of the sudden have eternal life with no beginning nor ending.
At the top of one of the replies it is stated: “you are a borderline “two seeder”. My question is what do you mean? With doing a search on Google for “two-seed” I came up with Parkerite theology and also something called Identity theology. From what I gather of the latter, it is a very racially motivated view of scripture to which I do not in any way shape or form identify with. As far as it being the Parkerite two-seed system, I have to claim ignorance. As I have said in a previous email, I have not personally read what Daniel Parker had to say. Because when people start talking ABOUT what someone believes there is always a bias involved and quite a bit of the time there is misunderstanding. Which brings me to my next question and I mean no disrespect in it. If you are referring to what is termed as Parkers two-seed system, have you personally read what Daniel Parker wrote concerning it? Or are you gathering your facts and judgments by what someone else has said? Again, I mean no disrespect nor accusation, it is simply a question.
Also, I realize that I may be the one deceived here. But what I see in Scripture, is what I believe has been revealed to me. I am not a Beebe-ite, nor a Smoot-ite nor any other type of “ite”. What these men have proclaimed has been a wonderful confirmation of what the Lord has revealed to me and I can not just undo that revelation. Call me simple minded, a two-seeder, a hollow-logger, a whatever you or any others wish to call me. What’s in a label? To me, Scripture is very clear even though I do not do it justice by any means with what I have attempted to proclaim in the above reply.
I do hope that this reply will be or has been received with the spirit that I meant it in. I desire no controversy nor contention.